англ. название записи: Istagosthi 2 - Guru-Tattva - 2021-09-12 - Sri Prem Prayojan
0:10All your psychological states, so when you chant, you're inviting a prakritan pran of the holy name to enter into your system and it does āvirbhāva, it descends and then takes over your prāṇa, so āvirbhūya, mano-vṛttau, vrajanti, tat-svarūpatām, that means it becomes the same, tat-svarūpatām, svayaṁ-prakāśa-rūpāpi, bhāva, and even though it's self-manifesting, Vasa-teika, what is the word? bhāsamānā prakāśyavat, it appears like, just like your jñāna-vṛtti, the light of consciousness of your soul, illuminates the movements of your citta, it appears that you are illuminating this, but this is illuminating itself, it's self-manifesting transcendental light, which is beyond your power, so we cannot know the divine realm, but we're now in Prabhu manifest in our citta-vṛttis, all of our perceptions right now, they're coming from our citta-vṛtti,
1:09So when nāma appears, then these perceptions melt away, rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya, and give us perception of the spiritual world, rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya, and give us perception of the spiritual world, rucibhiś citta-māsṛṇya. So it's very fascinating. The main explanation is the third canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the eleventh canto. The discussions of the citta, Gahan, Sutta-Kantum, everything. And then you can read, I believe it's the third chapter of what Therese Hamidu does in the first quadrant of the ocean.
1:38After śuddha-sattva, viśeṣa, ātmā, then two verses come, this, āvirbhūya, mano-vṛttau, vrajanti, tat-svarūpatām, and then another one, vastutaḥ, svayam-āsvāda, this vṛtti is not only svayaṁ-prakāśa, self-illuminating, but it's also svayam-āsvādya, it's self-relishing also, so saṁvit does the svayaṁ-prakāśa, and hlādinī does the self-relishing, so that's like a deeper explanation of the appearance of śuddha-sattva in the first śuddha-sattva, Shesha, and then this deeper explanation, we can, we have still a few more days, speak a little about this, Very fascinating, and if you chant very deeply every day, and the citta becomes very steady, you can see how it's all going on, see it, that's not theoretical, so shudanam is coming, Kyori Bodhi is giving shudanam,
2:36So what is the relationship between this kriyā without sādhu-saṅga, ekkah kriyama and na hibayabha Exactly, so the first stage you come in sādhu-saṅga, anyone who comes in sādhu-saṅga, they were under the control of the Prabhupada Abbas of kriyā-śakti, of māyā, now they come under the control of multiple British, even those who are foes, because the līlā of a pure Vaiṣṇava can never, you know, it's all perfect, it's all orchestrated by the internal potency
3:21So when we come in, but especially when we have instruction, you should chant every day, and we follow it, then we stay connected, and then kriyā-śakti comes, it's bhajana-kriyā, then we have the power to chant, and then that makes our citta become steady, and in the steady citta, then saṁvit and hlādinī comes, so satāṁ prasaṅgān mama vīrya, saṁvido, this means the parents of saṁvido, for Christmas, let's say someone, she's not so pure, but they're under kriyā-śakti, that can help the other person start the process, but not saṁvido.
4:05When the devotee comes and has actual realization, that is prakṛṣṭa-saṅga, prakṛṣṭa-saṅga, prakṛṣṭa-saṅga means most excellent, so pra-saṅga means prakṛṣṭa-saṅga, most excellent, saṅga, mama vīrya-saṁvido, gives the potency of saṁvit to actually produce realization, not just the mechanical practice of the activities. So the association with mahā-bhāgavata gives that potency? Yeah. Initiation or not initiation. It doesn't depend on that. Obviously that helps because the pañca-saṁskāra steady the person. It helps their desire to surrender, to have a form and shape and expression.
4:42But it's stated in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu that to receive this pāramārthika śraddhā, then one should associate with one of the three types of mahā-bhāgavatas So then Gurudev speaking about this, he says that even a madhyama cannot do So what does that mean? A madhyama's role So when is that only one of the three mahā-bhāgavatas access pāramārthika śraddhā?
5:10Okay kaniṣṭha madhyama uttama Talking about Voidiva, kaniṣṭha is before niṣṭhā, and the uttama-adhikārī is in ruci, that is for pure devotion service, so it's not kaniṣṭha bhakta, it's kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī, uttama, we talk about this, yeah, when you use adhikārī, it's adhikārī, adhikārī for doing uttama-bhakti, so uttama-adhikārī is ruci, He's got the highest qualification for that Okay, that's Adhika Yes, now bhāgavata goes up to, kaniṣṭha is included, up to niṣṭhā, and then madhyama starts from ruci, up to bhāva The bhāva is also madhyama-bhāgavata, we're talking bhāgavata, bhāva is also madhyama-bhāgavata And then prema, that is the, from prema onwards, that is the uttama-bhāgavata But the madhyama-bhāgavata can give Pusata and all these things Yeah, but which type of madhyama-bhāgavata?
6:20Because here, when you talk about the three types of process for giving, the Bhagavad Prashad, āsakti, and the Prashipa, Exactly. But from āsakti. So then, so then, that devotee that's in niṣṭhā, ruci. Khrasena āsakti, he has on the sevā sādhaka-rūpa, in siddha-rūpa, realization in his own svarūpa. So he knows the process, how to come to that stage.
6:44So then, so then, what is that devotee who's in niṣṭhā ruci, what are they giving? What can they give? They can help, because Gurudev said like, they cannot do that, bhajana-kriyā, yeah, they can help the person coming with bhajana-kriyā, but for somebody to do bhajana-kriyā, that means that then they have pāramārthika śraddhā, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, but apparently, those three types of personalities are the ones who are giving pāramārthika śraddhā, it's a, you know, the śraddhā is viśeṣa saṁskāra, it's a special saṁskāra, so it depends on the degree of power of the devotee, how he can give it, That's the question exactly no what I mean is the degree of the power how he'll give it so if that devotee is it like a good qualified madhyama then coming in this association giving instructions teaching every day guiding everything then gradually this special saṁskāra comes but one who is uttama can just go bing by a glance it's there so don't yeah those who are on that level they just boom
7:54Like that, but those on the lower level, they can still be, but it's like, it's a process, so for them, it said, don't have many disciples, because you can't train them, they'll, they'll give it gradually by, through pañca-saṁskāra, but mahā-bhāgavata, then just like that, that's what it says, no dīkṣā, the name doesn't even depend on dīkṣā, because that's a general process, for the, those who are like qualified, but not like dark moon, you can just go boom, get prema in a moment, so okay, so that's a uttama, Them, then how about the nidhukasoye, you have Bhagavad-gītā, they help from, just by the glance they can give, like Nārada Muni Guru, they would say, then you have nidhukasoye, then you have, they also can give just by the glance, just by the glance, because there's different potency, yeah, it's just the question, it's just the question of how fast it comes right, so something is given and slowly, if the person has qualified, but the power is not so strong, and the more powerful they are, then it doesn't have
8:56If you don't have to like take a long time to become right, you can just boom, there and then, give prema in a moment, like now. What is, is there any dependence on the disciples, the receptacle? Of course, of course. If you catch that, the disciples.
9:13Now we're on this side. One thing, who was in, probably Gurudev's last program, in the LA temple in Rose Avenue. I was there, I couldn't. There was a morning program, he came back from a morning when Gurudev came in the temple, and Syamarani, Gurudev was speaking, and he said, are you any questions? And Syamarani had a question.
9:38So then, Gurudev said, I'm just going to repeat his exact words. Gurudev said, are there any questions? And Syamarani said, did he hear? He said, so, someone is searching for a guru, they should try to find a mahā-bhāgavata, they must find a mahā-bhāgavata, otherwise they cannot find a guru. Gurudev, it is absurd, he was like, and everyone was shocked, couldn't hear the record, Gurudev said, it is absurd, he said, how does a person who is not even a kaniṣṭha, how can he recognize, who is a mahā-bhāgavata, who is not a mahā-bhāgavata, or anything, and he said, and such persons are extremely, extremely rare, as well, so the chances they will find, it's like, very rare, he said, but, madhyama-bhāgavata, madhyama-bhāgavata, madhyama-bhāgavata, madhyama-bhāgavata, he will play the role of Guru, and help that jīva,
10:38Then Syamarani said, but, but, but, but, but, you know, he doesn't have everything. So if he doesn't have everything, he can't give everything. So then Gurudev quoted a verse of Bhagavad-gītā. He said, in the Bhagavad-gītā, there's a verse where Krishna says that those who are worshipping the demigods, but with faith, then they get the results of their worship.
10:57But you should know that I am the one who gives it, Krishna said. So Gurudev quoted that verse and said, and guru-tattva will work like that. If the madhyama is sincere, and his disciple is also sincere, if there's anything lacking, Krishna will give, through him. You can look, it was the last time Gurudev was in Rose Avenue Temple, in the Darshan, after a morning morning.
11:20It was right after Badger. But when you ask about if somebody takes a session from a kaniṣṭha, it's useless.
11:29Because the kaniṣṭha himself has plans of an artist, and so if you accept any worship or praise or service or anything,
12:11śāstra-yukti nahi jani dṛḍha-śraddhāvān, the madhyama-adhikārī whose faith is strong but he doesn't have perfect śāstra-yukti, he doesn't understand the logic and reason of the scripture, that's the sign, he doesn't know siddhānta, so you're saying, how can a kaniṣṭha is to be a guru, I'm saying, he doesn't even know siddhānta, even if he becomes a madhyama-adhikārī, he still, he knows some siddhānta, but he doesn't know all the fine details and there are things that he cannot, they're unreconciled within him. Then when he becomes a uttama, then he knows śāstra-yuktye su-nipuṇa, he knows also. And as uttama-adhikārī starts at ruci. Yes, yes, yes. There's uttama-adhikārī, there's uttama-adhikārī, there's a difference.
12:55So beginning from having taste. When you speak about adhikārī, generally, it's in the context, or rather, the context in which Rūpa Gosvāmī is discussing it, is the adhikārī for performing uttama-bhakti, vaidhī-bhakti, of vaidhī-bhakti. and then the other myth about the bhāgavatas, bhāgavata-mārga is not arcana, there's arcana-mārga, pāñcarātrika arcana-mārga, vaidhī-bhakti, and then there's bhāgavata-mārga, so when you say, madhyama-bhāgavata, uttama-bhāgavata, then the levels are being measured according to the standard of the Bhāgavata, so if you see in Bhakti-sandarbha, Jīva Gosvāmī gives the eligibility, qualifications of devotees in different stages, and first he gives so many verses from śāstra, like says, anyone who wears a tilaka and kaṇṭhī-mālā is a devotee, like this, you know, it's the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī in vaidhī-bhakti, like this, and he's kaniṣṭha, madhyama, uttama, but then he speaks about bhāgavata-mārga, and then when he gives the qualifications, they're much, much higher, so you know, there's a famous lecture by Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, called Brāhmaṇa and Vaiṣṇava, remember he gave in that debate, and he gave that lecture, it became a book, so in that lecture, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura said,
14:05that the uttama-adhikārī in vaidhī-mārga is practically a kaniṣṭha in bhāgavata-mārga, he said practically a kaniṣṭha, it's like he's just starting out, you know, like that, so when we see any statement in śāstra, we should see what is the context, is it the context of arcana and vaidhī-mārga or is it the context of bhāgavata-mārga, rāgānugā-bhakti, that's another thing, like isolating a verse out from the entire, yeah, context is all important, because it seemed like Gurudev was, who was asking, somebody was asking, maybe Syamarani, saying, oh, he was speaking to GBC members, and they were asking, if somebody doesn't really have, maybe read something like that, then what type of guru will they come in contact with?
15:02then Gurudev said, I'm paraphrasing, might begin somewhere, he said first they come in contact with a kaniṣṭha, guru, and then gradually then they'll advance to a madhyama guru, and then they'll get an uttama, so you're saying like this, that there's like a gradual, you know, there's an ideal, how it should be, and then there's a reality, of how it actually works in real life, and that's why, let's say, if you look at Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, it says that you should take initiation from a guru, who's young, who's agree, vihasta, and who lives in your village. It's like, what's this about? Convenient. Oh, and handsome, should be handsome also. It's like there in the list of qualities, it's a little bit weird, you know? So, I mean, no, it sounds weird, it sounds strange, but why is it written like that in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa? Because if he's very handsome, but qualified brahmin and Vaiṣṇava, and living in your village, obviously he has some good saṁskāras from previous life and everything, and he's there and you're there. He can take care of you on a daily basis.
16:01He can sit with you and chant, He can train you how to do everything and cook and serve the deities and everything like that. So guru-tattva has been described in a practical way on a local basis. But then in the bhāgavata-mārga, it's understood that when there's a mahā-bhāgavata like Īśvara Purī or Mādhavendra Purī, we'll just be traveling everywhere.
16:21So then when he comes through town, then that local guru is going to say, oh Mahārāja, have a seat and everything. And then, his disciples, who he's already prepared, making them kirti, you know, making them refined, they hear from the mahā-bhāgavata, boom, and they get prema, like this. So there's a kind of synergy between, you know, the sincere and relatively qualified persons, and the great souls, and in śāstra, it's presented like that, how they work together to kind of help everyone.
16:51Is it satisfying for you? Like, there's the ideal, and then there's reality, and both aspects are given in scripture. The point that I got it now, in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu-bindu, where actually Swami talks about faith, that he says that the faith is coming from one of these three devotees, the bhakti rasha, they are Prabhupada, Nityanthaswami.
17:16Get the book in front of me, and we'll look at the exact... Oh, you know, you know, because the same thing is there in bhakti sadhana with the Swami, come on. Yeah, but look. The same thing is there No, Gurudev has I told you what Gurudev said Yeah Right And he said it So Gurudev is not going to go against Rūpa Gosvāmī or Viśvanātha You told me what he said in regards to work Yeah, in the roles Yeah, yeah Yeah, but he said different things in different circumstances Yeah, so we have to do the saṅgatis, exactly Exactly Exactly, exactly. So then when we do śāstra-saṅgati, then the saṅgati is done with books like Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu-bindu.
18:01Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, Gurudev's not saying anything independent of śāstra, he's not saying something else, so what's written there, that's written there, there are other things written in Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and other śāstras as well, and Gurudev's sometimes saying this and sometimes saying that, and then you get the whole picture.
18:18So, in regards to that village guru, could that also be applied to proper gṛhastha-āśrama, like the husband should, cultivating his children, could he also give like Gopāla-mantra, teach the march on, and then when high class Vaiṣṇava is there, then someone should not give a mantra unless they realize the mantra. So the realization of mantra comes in the stage of the dhyāna, the smaraṇa, dhāraṇā, dhyāna. So there's nāma-smaraṇa, rūpa-dhāraṇā, guṇa-dhyāna, and in dhyāna, mantris they realize the... guṇa-dhyāna is where? Asatthu? The guṇa-dhyāna, no, it will start in, in rāga-mārga, it will start a little bit in, in niṣṭhā, and the guṇas will appear in ruci, guṇa and prakāśa in the stage of ruci. You can see Viśvanātha Cakravartī's commentary on satāṁ prasaṅgān, mama vīrya, saṁvido.
19:14So these village gurus, they have that? He says in that commentary, if he associates with someone, not super excellent devotee, he'll get kriyā-śakti and he'll do bhajana-kriyā. But if he gets prakṛṣṭa-saṅga, then in the stage of niṣṭhā, he'll get saṁvit, some experience, some realization Krishna's form, and then his qualities in ruci, and associates, and then in āsakti, it's not mentioned there, but in āsakti, we know that the srubh comes, that's in other places like Bhakti-rasāmṛta.
19:47So from the madhyama, you can get kriyā-śakti? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. bhajana-kriyā, yeah. You know, you know what, it's really, the question that you're asking is completely answered in Caitanya-śikṣāmṛta, where Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura gives the breakdown of, who can give what to disciples in different stages of bhakti and how long it takes to do it.
20:12That's what I was saying. We've got translated in English, right?
20:16I'll look, I'll look. That's what I'm looking for. But it's there. It says, well, if the devotee has niṣṭhā, then he can give this, he has ruci, he can give this, but it will take a long time. One of the things is, one of the things he says is, there's a difference between, if a devotee is saying in ruci, then if he meets someone who has some saṁskāra from a previous life, This is another thing as well, you were talking about the guru, and he brought up the disciple, so there's different power and effect that a Vaiṣṇava can have, depending on the disciple himself, whether he has saṁskāras from a previous life, as well, because the mahā-bhāgavata can give saṁskāras to a person who's got no saṁskāras at all, just boom, like that, but if someone has a saṁskāra from the previous life, and he meets a madhyama guru, then that madhyama guru can bring him further, because he's got the saṁskāras already, yeah,
21:08So these are different, let's say, nuances, scenarios, different nuances regarding the guru and the disciple and previous lives and it's there in Caitanya-śikṣāmṛta. I'll find it for you. Thanks for bringing that up. I'll find all those exact verses and we can discuss it in the class.
